Self-cancelling indicators

**pedantic_pete** · 02-27-09

Please, please, please BMW give me a way of stopping my indicators self-cancelling!

It's the most annoying thing (and dangerous too) to have to think about re-applying the indicators when you're approaching a turn because they've stopped flashing. It's totally inconsistent with the good practise of giving other road users plenty of notice of your intentions and could lead to someone failing the RoSPA advanced motorcycling test because they didn't indicate early enough (e.g. on a dual carriageway, where you are supposed to start indicating by the time you pass the 300 yard warning sign). And you can't just press the indicator a second time a bit later to extend the length of time it flashes. This is a serious distraction. I'm used to riding bikes without self-cancelling and trust myself to manually cancel. I can see lawsuits coming your way because of accidents caused by this supposed safety feature.

**Old_Airhead** · 03-06-09

Pete, Good luck. I feel the same way you do. I've discussed this with 2 dealers and was basically told "Tough sh**, that's the way they are." Seems to me it would be a simple software change for them.

**WildWilly** · 04-28-09

Have not tried it on the ST yet, but with past self-cancelling turn signals (BMW & Harley) I found a way to extend the time. A Harley dealer, several years ago, told me that the computer didn't start counting until the turn signal button was released. I hold the button in until I'm close to the turn and this way I'm assured the turn signal stays on through the turn. Hoping this works with the ST. PITA? Yes, but it works. And I agree with you-hate self cancelling turn signals

**SHU** · 04-28-09

Thanks, WildWilly.

That actually sounds like a pretty good solution. Won't take your attention away from traffic. I like the self cancelling feature, but on the older bikes (my '92 K100RS) you could keep resetting the start point- that worked very well, I thought.

...............shu

**Scorch** · 04-28-09

I rather like the self-canceling feature. I find that activating the indicator at the 200 yard marker keeps it flashing for long enough to get off the dual carriageway before it stops. I know the RoSPA rule about the 300 yard marker, but personally believe that 200 yards is plenty of notice to start indicating.

Failing that, if you hold the indicator button in a few seconds before it cancels, and keep it held in, it will start a new 'countdown' and continue flashing with no interruption.

**dadayama** · 04-28-09

my complaint is the opposite, i wish they would cancel out faster.

Just goes to show you can't make everybody happy... or they could make it easily adjustable.

Peter in okc, ok

**redhededgreg** · 04-28-09

Agree with the above 2. Pretty sure for any US rider the delay before auto cancel is plenty long.

**trevor** · 04-29-09

Originally the time could be extended by just pushing the button again. This is how my 22 year old K100RT worked. BMW don't do this anymore probably saves 0.2c per bike

I still "double push" without thinking to extend the time when changing (charging?) across multiple traffic lanes. It's not until I get to where I want to be I discover that for the last few lane changes I've not been indicating because the stupid things turned themselves off.

The only solution is to cancel and re-start to extend the time which is just bloody stupid.

Trevor

**pedantic_pete** · 04-29-09

I'm with you Trevor.

I also used to own a K100 and a K75S and quite liked the self-cancelling on those. Then I had a couple of boxers which didn't have it (to my surprise when I first realised it) and got used to that. The problem with the F800 is that it's very hard to dial in an extended period of indicating without being distracted from the observation and other control activities required to carry out the manouevre you are indicating for.

This is a simple software issue which could be resolved to give everyone what they want given enough thought by BMW. The problem is I don't think they listen. Once they've decided what they think the customer should have, they appear implacable in their resistance to changing anything, even if it wasn't what the customer really wanted.

**Roadpizza** · 04-30-09

The self-canceling indicators work great. I learned to work with them, took note of how they operate at speed and I use them how they were designed to be used in my riding..... Nothing to get to get worked up over. Glad to have them.

**skippy** · 05-01-09

I'm still getting used to these buttons let alone the cancel scheme

. I have been caught with them switching off at an intersection without my realising. I imagine I'll get used to it and just as I always used to check the indicators were off after an intersection I'll just have to keep checking they are still on when I'm waiting. That suggestion about not releasing them sounds a good workaround.

**pedantic_pete** · 05-01-09

Originally Posted by skippy

That suggestion about not releasing them sounds a good workaround.

I tried that this morning - it didn't work. It only extends the time until you take your finger off the button. You have to press it again or cancelk and press again to make it extend.

**skippy** · 05-01-09

bugger

, but thanks for confirming!

**Scorch** · 05-01-09

Originally Posted by pedantic_pete

I tried that this morning - it didn't work. It only extends the time until you take your finger off the button. You have to press it again or cancelk and press again to make it extend.

Really?
It works for me. As long as I hold it in around the time they would normally self-cancel and then release, they'll keep flashing for another interval.

**trevor** · 05-01-09

The biggest shame is the K indicator cancelling systems (first for BMW not sure?) was just so right why did BMW think it needed fixing? I was not broken it was a great piece of design.

Anybody know what the F800R does, with the "new" buttons. I assume they self cancel like the F (and Rs) but anybody know, they are the same as the K? Or are modern Ks also fixed (if you see what I mean)?

.

**Scorch** · 05-02-09

Interesting question. The self-canceling feature is something I didn't think to check on my K13S and K13R test rides. I wonder how it works with the new switchgear...

**pedantic_pete** · 05-03-09

Originally Posted by trevor

The biggest shame is the K indicator cancelling systems (first for BMW not sure?) was just so right why did BMW think it needed fixing? I was not broken it was a great piece of design.

Anybody know what the F800R does, with the "new" buttons. I assume they self cancel like the F (and Rs) but anybody know, they are the same as the K? Or are modern Ks also fixed (if you see what I mean)?

.

We seem to be in a mutual admiration society all of our own here. At least we agree. It's not self-cancelling indicators we don't like - it's the particular way it's been implemented on the F series bikes.

I too didn't notice the way the indicators work on the new Ks when I test rode the 1200 series bikes (actually I've only tried the GT on the road, but I've ridden the R and S on the track where obviously I wasn't thinking too much about indicators!).

**mcrilly** · 05-05-09

I'm still a bit unsure about these indicators. This is the first bike I've come across them on and I'm keen to agree that they're a good idea, but I'm also in agreement that the implementation is poor in the F series.

I think I'll get used to them. I better had, as I want to do my advanced motorbike riding test soon, before I start touring.

Just a thought, but can the ECU not be played with on a bike? Or do bikes not have ECU units; is that only cars?

**polackium** · 05-05-09

You can count me as a fan of the self-canceling feature. I'll admit, it took a bit to get used to at first, but now I just press the button once when I want them on and then once again a few seconds later to keep 'em on (repeat as necessary).

Pressing the turn indicator button a couple of times before turning has become as natural as using the separate left, right, and cancel buttons (I agree these are a little wonky, but they became second nature after using them a bit). Of course, I don't envy anyone who switches back and forth between their F and another bike with 'traditional/japanese' style turn indicators - other than for the fact that they have more bikes than I do =)

Based on the differing opinions, I would agree that perhaps this could be a user-changeable feature, though.

FWIW, I did notice that the new K1300 and S1000 seem to have gone with the traditional style indicator button...

**trevor** · 05-07-09

Originally Posted by polackium

You can count me as a fan of the self-canceling feature. I'll admit, it took a bit to get used to at first, but now I just press the button once when I want them on and then once again a few seconds later to keep 'em on (repeat as necessary).

If yours work like that then they are unique!

That's how they worked on my K but not on my F (and everybody else who has bitched and moaned over the last 3 years). Pushing a few seconds later (and repeating) does not extend the time.

Pete being an ex K rider like me hates what they've done!

What year is your bike?

Trevor

**Leisha** · 05-07-09

I was having a bit of trouble when using my thumb to hit the cancel button, I would end up turning the throttle and speed up the engine every time. Now ( hopefully) I have finally got it down!

I will try some of the suggestions for keeping the signal on longer and see what workd for me.

Regards

**SHU** · 05-07-09

Originally Posted by Leisha

I was having a bit of trouble when using my thumb to hit the cancel button, I would end up turning the throttle and speed up the engine every time.....

Oh yeah......the "cancel button wheelie" effect!
I remember that. It took a little while to get that figured out but I haven't done it for ages now.

...........shu

**Mike in Ohio** · 05-14-09

I use the old-school hand signals now..been doing that since last season. Here in the U.S., left turn left hand goes straight out, right turn left hand goes straight up. In a hi-viz yellow jacket, it gets attention.

Now that I know they cancel early, I am putting myself in the habit of re-activating. But hand signals--that's the bomb. Plus I think it earns respect for ALL bikers from cage drivers who see even one guy doing that.

**trevor** · 05-14-09

Last time I did a hand signal was.............

ummmm............................

aaaaaaaaaaaa....................

Oh on my back test when I was seventeen.

So only a few years ago 'onest!

Trevor

**Roadpizza** · 05-14-09

I save the hand signal for the times like when a car cuts a corner and into my lane.

Other than that I use the turn signals and I am happy with their operation.

**skippy** · 05-19-09

Manual turn signals here might be a little challenging. We drive on the left side so its a right hand signal (right arm straight out horizontal) thats critical. We have to slow to make a turn but taking your hand off the throttle to indicate is gonna be interesting

**Leisha** · 05-19-09

I only worry about the young person who wouldn't have a clue what all the arm waving is about!

**flying circus** · 05-19-09

i love s/c indicators they can save you from a nasty accident, it is one of three features that made me buy the bike. the other two belt drive and tyre valves that you can put the inflater on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**pedantic_pete** · 05-19-09

Originally Posted by skippy

Manual turn signals here might be a little challenging. We drive on the left side so its a right hand signal (right arm straight out horizontal) thats critical. We have to slow to make a turn but taking your hand off the throttle to indicate is gonna be interesting

Also ride on the left. I use hand signals to confirm indicator signals: left hand signal to distinguish a left turn instead of pulling in to the side of the road, right hand signal to distinguish a right turn from overtaking parked cars, slowing down signal (right hand up and down) to inform people in front that I am slowing down (e.g. pedestrians at a crossing I am approaching), or combined with a left indicator to inform people I am pulling in to the side of the road.

If you make a hand signal in good time then you don't have to compromise braking (and there's plenty of engine braking on the F800) - it's more likely to be a problem of smoothness if you have to continue on the throttle after the hand signal.

The important thing is to be clear. In the UK all new drivers have to pass a theory test as well as practical so they should know the highway code, which defines the correct meaning of hand signals.

We shouldn't be frightened to use hand signals - it's so much easier to do on a bike than in a car and it's possible to use them to clarify an ambiguous signal. It just takes a bit of practice.

**joewiecha** · 05-22-09

Originally Posted by skippy

Manual turn signals here might be a little challenging. We drive on the left side so its a right hand signal (right arm straight out horizontal) thats critical. We have to slow to make a turn but taking your hand off the throttle to indicate is gonna be interesting

Hmmmm...what I learned was left arm straight out for left turn, left arm bent 90 degrees up at the elbow, hand vertical for right turn....and left arm angled down, pointing at the ground , palm out for stop.

Has this changed? Or different in the UK?

**pedantic_pete** · 05-22-09

In the UK it's left hand straight out for left turns, right hand straight out for right turns and right arm up and down to the right for slowing down.

**silver970** · 12-20-10

My 2010 R does not re-set with an additional push on the button. Same problem while exiting the freeway, signal cuts out in the midst of blipping down through the gears.

I've adjusted by planning the shorter signal time into the space I "create" for myself prior to starting the signal and peeling off speed.
Besides, relying on a signal to keep a cage out of your ass end isn't my idea of a sound plan.

**trevor** · 12-21-10

Correct somebody penny pinching at BMW.

You need to cancel and re signal.

I've taught myself over the last 4 years but still hate them. My old K100RT worked better!

**pedantic_pete** · 12-21-10

Well Trevor, it's getting on for two years since I started this thread and here we are back again. I guess everything that goes around comes around.

Or perhaps it just means that BMW still aren't listening and a new cohort of owners is facing the same frustrations we've been living with all this time.

**Gonzo** · 12-22-10

On the S1000RR, it is ten seconds or 200 meters, whichever comes first, BUT, only while moving. If you are stopped, they flash as long as you want.

**trevor** · 12-23-10

Chris

That's not the problem they all do that.

Back in the 80's if you pressed the indicator button again before they cancelled, the timer/distance calculation reset and started again. So on a long exit you could press, wait a bit, press wait a bit, press and keep the indicator on throughout the whole manoeuvre.

On the F800 you can't. The "second push" is ignored which is very frustrating!

**Alanake** · 04-09-11

I've only just bought my ST and the self-cancelling is easily the most annoying feature. The BMW dealership said I would love it, and if anything it would probably be the weird right indicator on the right bar arrangement that I'd hate most so I would hit the horn by accident a lot, but guess what? - got used to that in seconds and never hit the horn. But the s/c thing, whhoooaaa, I hate it. Manually cancelling the indicators is part of the correct turn procedure IMHO. Look / signal / brake / turn / cancel.

Next thing, BMW will make the engine turn itself off if you'd stopped for longer than 30 seconds

**AdrianLee10** · 04-09-11

I haven't had them go off yet... I have always had to turn them off... I guess I turn mine on too late

**Johann** · 04-09-11

I like the self cancelling but had the time extended on the F8 and the R1200 at the dealer.

**Wally E** · 04-09-11

On the S1000RR, it is ten seconds or 200 meters, whichever comes first, BUT, only while moving. If you are stopped, they flash as long as you want.

I have not confirmed this timing on my F800S, but it sounds like it's in the ballpark. I find that this timing is about right for typical freeway situations and speeds ie lane changing and on/off ramps, but not for tight suburban and city situations.

In tight situations, unless I remember to manually cancel, I often end up indicating too long after I have completed a turn.

By their nature motorcycles can't cancel mechanically and positively as a car can as soon as a turn is completed, but have to rely on a timer with pre programmed values or algorithm which does not neccessarily suit all situations.

I get the feeling that the time/distance values that Chris mentions are fixed and not additionally modified by speed, which would give a better compromise.

Without measuring all this stuff I can't really say, but it seems to me that BMW has not got it quite right here.
Further pity you can't "extend" with another push instead of having to cancel and push again.

Just my thoughts.....

**Scorch** · 04-09-11

You can extend it, by holding in the indicator button for a couple of seconds around the time that they are due to self-cancel. This gives it another cycle.

**trevor** · 04-10-11

Originally Posted by Scorch

You can extend it, by holding in the indicator button for a couple of seconds around the time that they are due to self-cancel. This gives it another cycle.

Scorch Foul!

I can hit them again when they self cancel that's what you are doing. You've just got a pre-emptive push.

**Scorch** · 04-11-11

Nope, I've tested it several times by holding in the button a couple of seconds before it's about to self-cancel, and then when I release the button it performs another cycle.

Honest, guv!

**pedantic_pete** · 04-11-11

Originally Posted by Johann

I like the self cancelling but had the time extended on the F8 and the R1200 at the dealer.

I didn't know they could do this. How much does it cost?

Scorch, I agree, you can extend the cycle by holding down the indicator switch around the time it's about to self-cancel. The problem is that you have to consciously think about doing that at the right time and to me that is a distraction from focusing on observation on the approach to a junction. To me it's a lot safer to train yourself to manually cancel indicators once you've completed a manoeuvre to the point that it's unconscious, so doesn't distract you from your riding.

Having said that, I have been known to forget to cancel them

. Double the on-time and I would be much happier.

**trevor** · 04-11-11

Originally Posted by Johann

I like the self cancelling but had the time extended on the F8 and the R1200 at the dealer.

Me too how?

**Johann** · 04-11-11

Hook up bike to the diagnostic computer and adjust, took him about 5 minutes to do. It was just as easy as changing tyre pressure monitor from Bar to PSI on the R12. I am not sure if you can turn it off altogether, but once adjusted I couldn’t see the need for it anymore. Cost.........$0

**tmichie** · 05-07-11

I have a 2007 ST with 125,000 kms and love the indicators switches but hate swapping back to the single cylinder F650GS with a single switch and ones that don't auto cancel. Different strokes for different folks.

**Mike in Ohio** · 05-12-11

They came up with self cancelling signals to protect us from people who ride motorcycles and never turn off the turn signal, and then sue the guy who pulls out in front of them and causes a crash because the guy in the car thought the guy on the bike was going to turn. After all officer-he DID have his turn signal on. In America we call self cancelling signals yet another fine example of the dumbing down of society. And we're very good at that.

For me, I think the risk is greater when you forget to turn OFF your signal then when you don't use it at all...

**pedantic_pete** · 05-12-11

Originally Posted by Mike in Ohio

For me, I think the risk is greater when you forget to turn OFF your signal then when you don't use it at all...

No doubt. But for me I feel confident that I cancel indicators pretty much automatically now, so that's not so much of an issue. I just would prefer to have the choice.

We hear a lot of people in the UK moaning about the 'Nanny State', without having to suffer the same from the manufacturers of our motorcycles.

**STARSHIP** · 10-27-13

Not certain the F800r has them, but out of habit, I am always pressing the button immediately after turning and sometimes just to be certain they are not on.

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