Hate against riders... is it true???

[alfio]

Hello guys.
The idea behind this thread came from an interview I've seen recently on RevZilla channel, where the guys from Highside/Lowside were interviewing Noraly from Itchy Boots (here the clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnCM-e3wAzQ&t=5259s).
At certain point, they were commenting the different way bikers are considered in Europe and in US. It was quite surprising to me, because even if I travelled enough, I've never faced a different way to be treated just because I rode a bike instead of driving a car. I didn't experienced the rage, the hate against riders they were talking about.
I just wonder why it happens. Why is there this big difference in consideration between our continent? What it could be the cause?
And what does it happen in other countries? I rode in South Africa, it was cool, absolutely no bad feelings from anybody...
May be they just exaggerated? I would like to have "first hand" experiences about this, otherwise why to have international forum to write in?

[Lighning]

I have been riding or around bikes for 39 years and here are my two American thoughts on the subject.

1. Riders riding like asshats can easily create the bad attitude towards them and other riders.

2. Almost everyone at least accepts the right of motorcycles to be sharing “their streets.”

Reminds me, I was driving down the freeway once in my car and I saw a motorcyclist behind a car in the fast lane giving her the finger for not moving over. A minute later I saw the motorcycle riding by about 90 miles an hour with a normal looking woman probably on her way to the office right up within two feet of his rear tire and he kept looking back at her all freaked out. The motorcycle community is responsible for most of their problems imo. Plus I have personally been met with verbal and physical incidents on the road for riding a BMW from brand X riders numerous times in the 20th Century. But none since I have started riding again in September….

Edit-Brand X was Japanese

[Daboo]

I think much depends on the attitude of the motorcyclist. I tried to pass a pickup truck that was towing a ski boat. As I went out around him, he speeded up to the point I thought I wouldn't be able to get back in to the lane and there was an oncoming car. Okay, I could chalk that up as being against motorcycles. But at the same time, my mind went back to when I was trying to pass a very small pickup truck that had been going about 10 mph under the speed limit...till a passing lane came and he speeded up to keep me from passing him. Unfortunately for me, I was driving a gutless 2003 Subaru Outback that barely had enough oomph to get around him. Similar situation, different vehicles. Just a jerk behind the wheel of the other vehicles.

Some riders ascribe to the idea that passing everyone constantly is "safe". I don't. On the safety aspect, it means you are coming into a new person's blind spot constantly and not simply finding a place with other cars where they see you and you see them. But on the idea of what that does in relation to the attitude of those drivers...think back to when you were growing up and your attitude regarding people cutting the line. Unless you were the one cutting the line, you immediately got angry.

So think about what that does to other people on the road when you are riding fast in traffic. First, you are cutting the line. You're probably scaring a few. I really don't like being treated as someone's cone on their racetrack, which just happens to be the road I'm on. And with road rage being what it is...who knows how that person you passed feels like?

For the most part, I ride with the flow of traffic and with about 4 seconds of space in front of me. Two seconds for reaction time, and two seconds to spot the 2x4 that the car straddled and which I will now run over if I don't react in time. People give me a wide berth and leave me alone. In fact, I get treated better than if I'm driving my Subaru.

Chris

[kickstandsup]

Yes, there's a big difference.

I now store one of my bikes in Germany for extended European tours. The European "Moto culture" is completely different from the US culture. Motorcycles are woven into the fabric of everyday European life...everybody has one, everybody rides one or has ridden one, they are everywhere. The riders, in general, are better too, with tiered licensing that is expensive. Car drivers expect Motos to pass them, they make room for them, wave them by, don't get upset. There is a "shared lane" mentality, and no one begrudges a Moto for going ahead at a light or filtering thru traffic, it is expected.

In the US, there is a "my lane" mentality and everyone thinks they have the "right" to "their space" and generally try to "protect" it. They will intentionally close gaps, speed up, slow down, fail to merge, etc. in an effort to "stay ahead." It is sickening.

Adding to that is the Harley Pirate open pipes crowd that still dominates the riding population in the US, and tends to adopt the "bad boy" approach to the world, giving all other riders a bad reputation to the general public. And even they refuse to make way for cars or other bikes when in their pirate parade.

So yes, there's a big, big difference. Riding in Europe is Nirvana, can't wait to get back.

[Runmyownlife]

I recall whilst in some of the larger, more traffic congested cities in western USA a few occasions where I'd wave a hand in appreciation for letting me merge. The look of confusion as to the meaning of the gesture (was that all his fingers or just the middle one?) made me realize different attitudes exist between Canada and the USA.

I suppose a dominant pattern emerges over time. I feel, in the parts of the USA I have experienced, that lane possession is a widely held and self-enforced "right".

[kickstandsup]

Oh, and as to how you're treated in Europe as a biker compared to the US? No comparison.

In Europe, full gear is expected, you don't get the "are you riding a snowmobile?" question. You can show up at high end restaurants/hotels in full leathers, all textile, rain suit, ATGATT, there will never be a comment other than "did you have a good ride?" Many, many Euro hotels have private, indoor Moto parking, and there are "bikers welcome" signs. They even have specific biker oriented hotels, MoHo and Tourenfarhren.

Bikes are part of the culture and embraced. And don't get me started on scooters...everyone has a scooter...kids, men, women, grandmas, everyone. The Sooterati are everywhere!

And that's where it begins...

[notacop]

Like Daboo I find there are those that will let me pass and others that have no idea what they are doing. They may as well not have mirrors on the vehicle, motorcycle or 4 wheeled.
Had that happen going over the mountains and back today. I don't take dumb chances and can lay back and coast along. Some pullover and others are the ass hats referred to.

[Closterman]

My following suggestion is not THE cause, I’m only proposing to look at one aspect of complex cultural differences.
That is the required training to get a driver’s licence in Europe compared to North America.
They are a lot of variables at play here but on average in France for exemple you have to study and pass an exam on the Highway Code. (Have you seen what the French Highway Code looks like? It’s a 3in thick book!). Driving lessons are not mandatory but strongly suggested and are 30-35h long. On average first attempt road test success rate is 58% (for those who took driving lessons!). On average the costs to get a driving licence is around 1500euros.
Course curriculum lists a section on “how to safely share the road with other users”
I also read a comment that the requirements are even tougher in Germany.
I’m not saying that the French/European system is better. Just saying that there is a level of consciousness towards general safety on the road (and towards bikers) that is not as present in North-America.

[Gunther]

I've noticed the wonderful behaviour of french drivers the first time I traveled there, say 15 years ago: they looked in the mirrors! stayed on the right! and did their best to let me pass!
I must admit that things like these are not so common in Italy, and at first it was even something strange to me, I had never seen drivers so kind toward motorbikes.

[alfio]

I've never ridden in the US (unfortunately), that's why I was so curious to know.
It seems to me that the "motorbike culture" is a key factor. In Europe.... well, in the part of Europe that I know (Italy, France, Germany, Spain, UK...), Motorcycle is a strong reality: scooter, moped, every type of motorbikes, small, big, tall, low, it is so common to see 2-motorized-wheels around that the simple fact to be a "biker" says nothing about you. Nobody will think about you as an outlaw monster ready to insult you bloody driver because you are limiting my freedom, or something like that. Bikers are expected to skip the lines (not everywehre... just try to do that in Switzerland!), to overtake you, obviously always in a safe and reasonable way.
I say that culture is a key factor because, for example, in Russia, and other central Asian countries, a motorbike is considered a "legal way to suicide" (personal experience!), because of course they have not the habit about it due to weather, to territory extension, and there is no urban commuting riders, or bike travellers, the few riders are high speed lovers and, consequently, high rate accident attendants... It would be interesting to know how road users consider a bike traveller if they see one around.

[Lighning]

Saw a Harley rider the other day almost get stuck between two cars that wouldn’t move over (both drivers looked completely clueless) and as he finally got through he slapped hard a brand new suv. Any thoughts?

[MGD109]

Saw a Harley rider the other day almost get stuck between two cars that wouldn’t move over (both drivers looked completely clueless) and as he finally got through he slapped hard a brand new suv. Any thoughts?

If I understand this correctly the Harley rider was riding between two lanes of slow moving traffic and got held up by two cars where the gap between them was not big enough to let him get though. I'm assuming the drivers just hadn't seen the bike in the mirrors (maybe there was and there had been some interchange). I personally think he over reacted and I struggle to understand the response. Most times if I'm held up is such situations there in no malicious intent from the drivers, just not looking to hard in the mirrors and I'll just wait until able to make progress, would not feel the need to bang on cars bodywork.

[Lighning]

Yes that is what happened. I think the finger is not wise these days with hotheads everywhere but banging on the car is just asking for it. Not to mention putting the rest of us riders at risk in the future. Reactions like that are from our quaint yesteryears. Us bikers no longer rule the roads.

[scf]

I found one of Peter Egan’s books, used at Goodwill, ”Leanings”, reprint columns from Cycle World.
One of his stories is about a M/C ride he & a friend took in 1967. Some of the places they weren’t welcome on their bikes.
Made me remember going to a coffee shop with my dad in the early 60s. They had a sign on the entrance door, No Motorcyclists Allowed. Kinda pissed him off, he had a Honda Benly 150 & couldn’t have been more of an upstanding citizen.
I guess Outlaw gangs were more prevalent in those days & all motorcyclists were to be feared & avoided.

[kickstandsup]

Back in the late 90s, I planned a trip through WV with 4 friends. On every trip I usually try to find one "interesting" hotel, this time it was the Greenbrier. Reservations already made by everyone. We roll up (all on quiet sport bikes), in the pouring rain, guard at the gatehouse would not let us in. "We don't allow motorcycles." I was so pissed.

Have never encountered that in Europe, have always been welcomed and the bike well taken care of with secure parking.

[Daboo]

It'll happen more and more. We don't police ourselves. When bikers put straight pipes on their bikes, they may feel they are cool...but those within a half mile radius consider it obnoxious noise. So the non-riding public simply passes rules for their communities and bans motorcycles. Even if you live there.

Chris

[Lighning]

Back somewhere in the 1980’s I stopped at a regular hotel in Arizona and the cool manager said, “I would bring your BMW into the room.” I was like seriously? But you have carpet? He was like, “Here let me help you.” I love cool people!!!

I remember talking to Her saying how good it is to have you sharing
my room…either R65 or K75c.

[Rev Ken]

It'll happen more and more. We don't police ourselves. When bikers put straight pipes on their bikes, they may feel they are cool...but those within a half mile radius consider it obnoxious noise. So the non-riding public simply passes rules for their communities and bans motorcycles. Even if you live there.

Chris

SO true! Here in the Lake District too many idiots have disturbed the peace that there have been movements to ban them completely! (It is a National Trust property and they have authority to do it! There is already a plan to ban all 'offcomers' coming into the Lake District as in the summer sometimes the roads are impassable to emergency vehicles due to irresponsible parking.)

[Lag]

I live on a popular beach drive area and there is one (some time 6 in a group) of those straight pipe behemoths' going by every 20 mins especially in the summer months, some with the music cranked up at a level that they and everyone else can hear over obnoxious straight pipes for blocks in either direction, not going fast but blipping the throttles as they go,,,. Speed bumps make it worse, it gives them yet another chance to blip the throttle before goosing up to 50 or 60Kms again all dressed in pirate gear with snow white beards, they could easily be Santa's in their spare time,,. Its not that I don't like them,,,,, I despise them with a passion, the most inconsiderate assholes around ,!!
And
I'm a biker,,!!

[scf]

Snow White beards? Hey, I resemble that remark
When I was a kid, LOUD pipes were an infraction, I got some tickets & put muffler back on.
I guess it no longer matters, the louder the better.

[ccwatchmaker]

Please forgive me if I have posted this previously, it seems appropriate at the moment.

[Lighning]

The best motorcycle billboard ever? Haha!

When they suddenly blip those straight pipes while splitting lanes I have this reflex to crank the wheel hard in no direction in particular. One day when I am old I probably will accidentally do it. Idiots!

When I was young I lived by SS Choppers in Ocean Beach CA and sometimes at night I would be asleep and fall out of my bed when a straight pipe suddenly blasted outside. Someone finally burned that place down.

And the whole loud pipes save lives is not true in my experience. Aggressive riding that many/most people who follow that logic do is much more dangerous than not assuming that cars are going to get out of the way for you.

[Lag]

The other side of the coin is the folks that are running double the speed limit and then getting pissy with the cars when there not reacting quick enough to the situation,, Its easy enough to gobble up the traffic with a bike, they are quick, nimble and some of them stop pretty good as well, but if your wizzing through traffic its on you, not on the old lady that didn't see you coming,,!!

[Lighning]

So true!!!

[Lag]

Snow White beards? Hey, I resemble that remark
When I was a kid, LOUD pipes were an infraction, I got some tickets & put muffler back on.
I guess it no longer matters, the louder the better.

German Motorcyclists Fight For Open Roads


German motorcyclists’ organizations have to spent a lot of their time and efforts on road closures for motorcycles.

And let’s face it: these road closures do not only affect German riders, they also affect riders from other countries that love to ride through the beautiful German countryside during their holidays.

Road closures for motorcyclists in Germany still seem to be the only solution the authorities are able to come up with, when it comes to dealing with incidents involving motorcyclists and reports of noise pollution. For German motorcyclists’ organization (and FEMA member) BVDM this leads to the question ‘Does the misconduct of individuals justifie that all motorcyclists are deprived of riding pleasure?’. Their answer is a strong ‘no’ and BVDM therefore fights against road closures for motorcyclists.

Legally the blocking of a road for motorcyclists is only permitted if other, minor measures (such as targeted traffic monitoring) have been unsuccessful. BVDM’s opinion is very clear: the possible misconduct of a few should in no case be sufficient to prevent others from exercising their fundamental rights.

In order to prevent the complete closure of routes, which should always be the last measure, BVDM participates in meetings and advises authorities. BVDM also talks to local residents and motorcyclists along popular motorcycle routes, which leads to a better understanding and can even lead to more realistic solutions than road closures.

Using the map below you can zoom in on the current German road closures.

http://www.fema-online.eu/website/in...road-closures/

[Daboo]

I took my youngest daughter up to the Cascade Pass/Sahale Arm Trail a few years ago.



(That's not us, just a stock photo, but where we ate our lunch also.) You don't just drive to this place. It's on the North Cascade Highway and often referred to as the "American Alps". I had to drive 23 miles on dirt roads after the pavement ended to just get to the parking lot for the trail. We then hiked about 2 more miles and paused for a break. That far out in the wilderness...and I could hear the motorcycles on Hwy 20 below.

I hate loud pipes.

Chris

[Lag]

Austria Bans Motorcycles.

https://fliesonthevisor.com/austria-...orcycle-noise/
From June 10th 2020, motorcycles with a registered noise level of more than 95dB (A) may no longer drive on the specified roads. The 95dB limit isn’t how loud your motorcycle actually is, it refers to the figure the factory used when they homologated your motorcycle.

The registered dB figure is shown on one of the VIN plates on your motorcycle. In the UK that figure is also on the V5 registration document. If your bike has had the CAT removed and a full race exhaust system added, this doesn’t appear to matter for this rule, although I don’t think I’d wish to test that assumption.


Out of the showroom, the Suzuki V-Strom passes at 89dB. Kawasaki ZX10 and most Honda Fireblades are over the limit at around 97dB, and should you be riding a Ducati Multistrada 1260, then best visit other places as your figure is 102dB.

Suzuki GSXR 1000s are over the limit. As is a long list of Triumphs including Street Triples, Bonnevilles, Tigers and the 2020 Rockets IIIs, all of which come in at around 97dB

When, Where and How Much?
The noise restrictions run from June 10th to 31st October 2020 and affect only motorcycles. Cars, trucks and any other vehicle may continue to use these routes regardless of the noise they create. As for what happens in 2021 and beyond, we will have to wait and find out.

If caught on one of these routes, and your motorcycle was registered by the factory as louder than 95db, the fine is 220 euros. And it doesn’t matter if you are a local as there are no exceptions for residents.

[Lag]

France is now using “noise cameras” to target noisy vehicles,,,. Loud pipes will get you a ticket.

https://advrider.com/report-france-i...ent=01_11_2022

[alfio]

Well, I'm a kind of weird rider, I admit
I don't like noise, may be because I'm getting old.....
I admit recent electric motorbikes seduce me pretty much (then they say me how much they cost and I come back to my poor reality ) even because I like the idea to go around silently, smoothly and avoiding to piss somebody else off.

[Rev Ken]

Well, I'm a kind of weird rider, I admit
I don't like noise, may be because I'm getting old.....
I admit recent electric motorbikes seduce me pretty much (then they say me how much they cost and I come back to my poor reality ) even because I like the idea to go around silently, smoothly and avoiding to piss somebody else off.

You could get an LE Velocette!