PCV+Autotune wet mapping - BMW G450X Riders Forum & Registry



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  1. #1
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    Hello everybody,
    after solving the problems with the poorly front suspension, by changing to a Kayaba fork with Öhlins closed cartridge and Xtrig fork clamps, all from a Honda Crf 450, at the beginning of this year I want to start the next step now to generate better rideability by optimizing the engine managemant. For this I have got me a PCV with Autotune modul. As this issue is already discussed and discribed very detailed in this forum I'm already familiar with the basics therfore. There are just a few questions open.
    I'm riding Motorbikes since more than 40 years now and also did a lot of enduro riding with my mountainbike since a lot of years. But enduro riding with a motorbike I just started last year. Also the progress I achived in this short time is realy good, I'm still a Greenhorn in this. This ist the reason for thinking about producing the possibility of swiching to a less agressive mapping by a maping swich, particular for wet and slippy conditions. Another point I woukd like to improve is the plopping of at low throttle openings, because in the past this have already led to some unwanted ground contacts in technical terain.
    Mostly I ride in well wooded, hilly area on single trails with slippy up- and downhills. High speed passages are rather rare and mainly on road, of cause with another weel set.
    So here are my questions:
    1) Is there anybody who uses, ore at least who knows how to create a so caled wet mapping with a bit of power reduction, but still good response ?
    2) Is it possibe to swich between a fixed mapping (wet mapping) and the self regulating Autotune ?
    3) Is it useful to remove the second butterfly according to a smooth and even throttle response and improving plopp of behaviour ?
    4) How do I get the best improvement in matter of plopping of at low throttle openings

    Thanks for your support in advance
    Carsten

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  3. #2
    Tims1572's Avatar
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    Remove the second butterfly, set the idle at 1950-2000.
    When filling in the map tables populate the boxes to have fuel below the 2000 rpm idle speed in the 1750 rpm and 1500 rpm area. The bike will not know that this has been done but the map will. That fuel will be what keeps the engine running at any rpm under normal idle speed.
    The PCV installation instructions will tell you not to do this but for me it eliminated any chance of flame outs, even if I happen to stuff the front wheel in front of a rock or log, in tight single track and the bike comes to a halt before I can quickly pull in the clutch. Which with me can easily happen since I still have 2 titanium plates in my left wrist with 28 screws, add that with a slow reaction time because my other 2 bikes have a Rekluse clutch so I normally won't have to worry about that kind of situation.
    Go back through the forum and find my previous posts on exactly how I set up the accelerator pump feature. Set your target (Air Fuel Ratio) AFR tables first, as the RPMs climb you will want to begin to richen the AFR as the % rpm increases past 70% and the % throttle opening increases with it past 70%. Always take into consideration that you have the intention of running the Autotune to build your own ride map tables. This is real world tuning, not some BS map from someone else's dyno session inside a building you find on the internet.. My map tables may not work for you either. This can be a lengthy process but once you have installed the bigger wide band O2 sensor in the head pipe you are well on your way to getting results while riding with the Autotune doing the map for you by reaching these target AFR settings you have used in your initial set up.. I soldered all connections when wiring the entire system into my bikes harness.
    I don't want to give you conflicting information here with conflicting % numbers on + fuel, % throttle opening, or duration of time or % of an individual second on setting up the accelerator pump feature. So go back through my previous posts to get the actual numbers and think clearly about what it is actually doing with the math involved in the set up. But you are going to select the percent of rpm time by dividing the engine rpm by seconds and add + fuel for a determined amount of time divided by rpm at that percent throttle opening off idle. Unlike a carburetor it won't do this everytime the throttle is closed and opened again. It will only give a timed amount of fuel for a portion of a second starting and stopping between the given rpm off idle between the 0% and the selected % throttle opening as it is opened. You will figure it out. Once this is done you will leave it activated and it will accelerate up off of idle so cleanly you won't believe it, and that can be adjusted easily no matter how fast you crack the throttle. It (accelerator pump feature) has a second timer that will do the same thing at a higher rpm as well if you happen to have a flat spot in the map up higher but I have never needed to use it.

    You can switch between the PCV map (leave the autotune activated so it is always tuning and making corrections) and then switch to the factory's low power setting by setting up a switch with the factory power up plug loop. The bike must be shut off and restarted again to activate the high power and low power settings with that switch though. This isn't something I have done so don't have any experience myself but a 2 pole toggle switch is all you need to do that.
    Switching between Autotune activated and running on the latest (most recent) map that has been created has to be done from a laptop. Where you can look directly at the current map and save that map, deactivate the autotune and the bike will run that current map. However every time I have done this in the past, I was simply looking to see that all the boxes have been occupied across the tables with either a + or a - which shows a correction has been made or has occurred while riding in any % rpm setting at any and all %throttle opening events. This will take a long time for this to actually happen in any and all scenarios so I have always left the Autotune feature activated so it does its job. I never turn it off because some of our rides can go up in elevation from 4000 ft. to 8000 ft. very quickly and back down again just as fast. So having the bike run to a set Air fuel Ratio is the best thing for the bike.
    Last edited by Tims1572; 12-11-21 at 08:09 PM.

  4. #3
    Tims1572's Avatar
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    I would love to see a detailed post on fitting the KYB forks to the G450X. What front wheel are you now using ?
    Which X-Trig trees were used, were they the ones used to swap the forks onto the CRF after the Showa Forks had been removed from it?
    What size bearings were the X-Trig trees using and what needed to be done to fit them to the G450X steering head ?

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  7. #4
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    Thanks for the quick response in the PCV thing. I will make you some pictures from the Kayabe fork and compile the details tomorrow

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  9. #5
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    Hi Tim,
    got the PCV with Autotune in now and also programed the accelerator pump stuff. Seems to work like it should, as far as I can say to date. Just one curious thing I have, after going for the first little turns with the bike. On the autotuned trim table I found adjustments up to RPM's of 11250 revolutions. Apart from that the engine should never reach revs over 10500 anyway, I was just running some saml single trails since putting the PCV in opperation, where I certainly didn't rev over 7000. Do you have any idea haow this can be ? Also I have adjustments of - 21 up to -29 from 1750 rpm to 4000 rpm at 2% throttle opening. This seems a lot to me. Was it also that much when you have been started with the Autotune ? I'm a little worried about running to lean.

  10. #6
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    Give the bike some time for the Autotune to adjust the map according to your Preset AFRs.
    As long as you have set the AFR to 13.2 to 1 from idle and begin going a bit richer across the table as you reach 60% throttle opening and 60% of the RPM range to 13.1 to 1 as it goes higher 13 to 1 and continue to increase so by the time it reaches 100% throttle opening and 100 of the RPM range at 10500 you should be at 12.8 to 1 you should be alright.
    Take a look at the spark plug.
    As long as the AutoTune is activated and running it will take several rides for the bike to reach any and all given rpm % openings, with any and all the % throttle openings as well for it to begin to make changes to the boxes across the map tables. It has to reach the target AFRs in to fuel the bike in order for it to create these changes. I wouldn't worry too much about coasting no throttle situations at low, low rpms as to what it shows on the map table.
    What you will begin to see is + or - numbers populating the boxes across the fuel map table from all possible % rpm ranges that are accompanied by % throttle usage.
    It will take many, many rides for it to reach all these possible % RPMs and % Throttle opening ranges.

    Don't sweat the boxes on the map at anything higher than the Red line at 10500. I believe the rev limiter will control that from going beyond that rpm range anyway. If not, you should.

  11. #7
    Campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schüppe View Post
    Hello everybody,
    after solving the problems with the poorly front suspension, by changing to a Kayaba fork with Öhlins closed cartridge and Xtrig fork clamps, all from a Honda Crf 450, at the beginning of this year I want to start the next step now to generate better rideability by optimizing the engine managemant. For this I have got me a PCV with Autotune modul. As this issue is already discussed and discribed very detailed in this forum I'm already familiar with the basics therfore. There are just a few questions open.
    I'm riding Motorbikes since more than 40 years now and also did a lot of enduro riding with my mountainbike since a lot of years. But enduro riding with a motorbike I just started last year. Also the progress I achived in this short time is realy good, I'm still a Greenhorn in this. This ist the reason for thinking about producing the possibility of swiching to a less agressive mapping by a maping swich, particular for wet and slippy conditions. Another point I woukd like to improve is the plopping of at low throttle openings, because in the past this have already led to some unwanted ground contacts in technical terain.
    Mostly I ride in well wooded, hilly area on single trails with slippy up- and downhills. High speed passages are rather rare and mainly on road, of cause with another weel set.
    So here are my questions:
    1) Is there anybody who uses, ore at least who knows how to create a so caled wet mapping with a bit of power reduction, but still good response ?
    2) Is it possibe to swich between a fixed mapping (wet mapping) and the self regulating Autotune ?
    3) Is it useful to remove the second butterfly according to a smooth and even throttle response and improving plopp of behaviour ?
    4) How do I get the best improvement in matter of plopping of at low throttle openings

    Thanks for your support in advance
    Carsten
    G'day Carsten, sorry I didn't reply sooner to your original post.

    I will try and go through your questions and issues and provide some relevant links and PCV Maps to get you in the ball park.

    1. Wet mapping. The only way to have effective low power mapping is to switch between your PCV tune and the factory low power mode. The reason for this is the PCV for the G450X does not support ignition mapping and EFR changes on their own will not provide the desired results. The PCV for the Husky TE449/511 does, however it plugs directly into the ECU and the loom pin layout is different between the two. It maybe possible to reconfigure the pin layout or use a Husky ECU but I have not looked into it.

    2. Link to previous post in response to a similar query by Dom. http://g450riders.org/forum/showthre...=1#post1377914 and http://g450riders.org/forum/showthre...=1#post1387785

    Read the whole post as Tim put some info in there when he installed PCV and Autotune.

    3. The Husky seemed to suffer more than the BMW and I didn't have a issue but I removed it anyway. No regrets but it did seem to alter off idle fuelling, not an issue with PCV. Link;http://g450riders.org/forum/showthre...=1#post1481170 *Note later in David's CafeHusky post he mentions TPS, this can be done through the PCV. I will get back to this later.

    4. In my opinion through tuning including fuel pump feature, TPS adjustment and setting throttle % in PCV. Having said this I would remove the secondary butterfly, I did not remove the idle up as per David's Post and don't have an issue.

    Will add some map files and go through PCV features shortly. OK so can't attach PCV maps, they attach in email so will give you a PM.

    TPS setting using PCV.

    I do this without the bike running by waking up the ECU by flashing the high beam, I find the reading jumps around otherwise and adjustment of the sensor difficult.

    POWER COMMANDER TOOLS > CALIBRATE > THROTTLE POSITION; Actual sensor voltage is displayed in the middle box loosen the retaining screws and move the sensor to obtain between .750 and .800. Mine is set at .782
    Handy stuff from Hexcode can be found here; https://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/g450x

    When waking up the ECU as above (Bike needs to have been warmed up) the PCV should display 0% throttle second line down at right of screen and 100% at full throttle. If not it needs to be calibrated and instructions are on page 2 of the PCV User's Guide. http://https://www.dynojet.com/amfil...5/category/66/ If the throttle position % is incorrect the fuel table will be advanced or retarded depending on the error.

    Accelerator Pump; POWER COMMANDER TOOLS > CONFIGURE > FEATURE ENABLES AND INPUT SELECTION > ACELL PUMP CONFIGURE. I use the following values for tight single track use. %Delta Throttle 6.5, Duration 100 Revs, Fuel Adjustment 10%

    Air Fuel Ratio. I might be wrong but I think this is displayed third row down to the right of screen if the wide band sensor is fitted regardless of whether Auto Tune is running or not. (After warm up period)
    If you enable cell tracing this can be used to read individual cells around idle for EFR and manually adjust. OPTIONS > ENVIROMENT OPTIONS > TABLE CELL TRACER > CHECK BOX ENABLED > DURATION SINGLE CELL.
    While you are in ENVIROMENT OPTIONS check the boxes RETRIEVE DEVICE MAP UPON CONNECTION and CREATE BACKUP MAP FILE UPON DEVICE CONNECTION this ensures any changes you make are saved.

    The reason for utilizing the above for cells around idle 2% is reversion in the exhaust system. Most Maps are written on a Dyno with a sniffer up the Exhaust and engines with large valve overlap suffer from flow reversion in the exhaust system. The fewer the number of cylinders and the shorter and more free flowing the exhaust the more pronounced this will be. At low RPM this reversion affects the AFR reading. Having the wide band sensor in the header improves but does not eliminate the issue under certain conditions.

    Auto Tune; I suggest you limit the Trim of the Auto Tune to 10% initially and then 5% and 2% as you build your Map. POWER COMMANDER TOOLS > CONFIGURE > FEATURE ENABLES AND INPUT SELECTION > AUTO TUNE > CONFIGURE > MAX ENRICHMENT 10% > MAX ENLEANMENT 10%.

    I would follow Tims advice re populating cells below idle, I have not had an issue with this. Also some of his earlier post have more detail on setting AFR across the throttle opening and through the rev range and the reasoning behind it. We both use very similar AFR tables so I won't go into it here.

    Regards Campbell
    Last edited by Campbell; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:38 AM.

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schüppe View Post
    Hi Tim,
    got the PCV with Autotune in now and also programed the accelerator pump stuff. Seems to work like it should, as far as I can say to date. Just one curious thing I have, after going for the first little turns with the bike. On the autotuned trim table I found adjustments up to RPM's of 11250 revolutions. Apart from that the engine should never reach revs over 10500 anyway, I was just running some saml single trails since putting the PCV in opperation, where I certainly didn't rev over 7000. Do you have any idea haow this can be ? Also I have adjustments of - 21 up to -29 from 1750 rpm to 4000 rpm at 2% throttle opening. This seems a lot to me. Was it also that much when you have been started with the Autotune ? I'm a little worried about running to lean.
    G'day Carsten,
    If you follow the link to Hex Code in my reply to your original post and have a look at the Full Akro map you will see similar figures. The Leo Vince Slip on only Map is vastly different in this area. What exhaust system you are running will alter your mapping significantly, perhaps let us know what you are running. Hex Code don't specify which full Akro this is, the early expansion chamber design or the later non chamber design. I had the former when the bike was new with a Dyno Map and had to replace it after destroying it. While trying to find a replacement I ran the Hex Code Full Akro Map with the Akro Slip on and STD header with only minor changes to the mapping without issue. Once I changed the Header to the later Akro the fuelling was way to lean around idle - 2% between 1750 - 3000 RPM. Have you removed the secondary Butterfly and ensured you have no exhaust leaks? Both can effect tune.

    The general rule of thumb with tuning is to make incremental changes and adjacent cells should not be radically different from each other but rather follow a trend across the Map. If you have adjacent cells that are radically different average them out before accepting the trim. You can do this simply by typing in the Cell. The High Power Map in the ECU is very rich so all your trims should be negative.

    With regard to your cells above 10,600 RPM being populated, have a look at my reply to your original Post in re TPS and Throttle % Calibration. Also the PCV has the ability to extend revs it would be wise to check it is not enabled/check the setting. POWER COMMANDER TOOLS > CONFIGURE > FEATURE ENABLES AND INPUT SELECTION > REV XTEND > CONFIGURE.



    Regards Campbell

  14. #9
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    Carsten, You can set the Autotune to make adjustments of up to 40%. I would set it to 20% to start and any cells or boxes in the map that show numbers higher you will have to manually fill those cells in with a number and then let the autotune fine tune those cells as time goes on. You are going to have to ride the bike several times for it to repopulate every cell from the base map. You can't see the previous changes the Autotune has been making unless you accept the previous rides changes. Eventually you will bring its % correction down to 5% and at which point you must accept the changes and map so if you want to at this point you could deactivate the auto tune, even remove it if you want. But you have to accept the previous changes and save that map first.

    I found something you can read below from a DynoJet Dyno tuning shop that further explains a lot of this because DynoJet provides very little information for us do it yourselfers to work with their PCV products. But he is using a Polaris XP900 Side x Side as an example for his explanations.
    I have made a few spelling corrections to this article.
    If we were trying to tune a Harley Davidson it would be different because the bulk of information out there is for Harleys and there are a million base maps to start out with for those guys.
    Our base maps are basically nonexistent so we have to take control and start from scratch from writing an AFR table.
    Read this below:

    A base map is either going to be a zero table where the PC V has no fuel map in it at all therefore not changing the fuel over stock or in most cases it will have a map for a stock vehicle with stock exhaust. When I get a PC V from Dynojet say for a XP 900 it will have Dynojet's base map for stock engine and stock exhaust in it. If I didn't have an auto-tune and I was going to tune my XP 900 for a mod like an exhaust etc., I would be watching the air/fuel ratio gauge on my dyno and then manually making changes to the base map by changing the numbers in the table. I suggest before you start you save the base map so you can always go back to it if needed. Once you make the changes to the base map, I suggest you save it on your computer too.

    Ok, now we know what a base map is, once you connect the auto-tune and turn it on in the software there will be two more tables appear on the left side in what I call the tree, not sure what dynojet calls it. One table is the AFR table and the other is the trim table. The AFR table is where you tell it what air/fuel ratio you want to run at all RPM and throttle positions. You can surely customize this as you like but an air/fuel ratio of 13.2 overall is not a bad place to leave it.

    The Trim Table shows the changes the auto-tune has made to the base map in the background before you accept it then it changes the base map. So here's how it goes, once you connect and have the auto-tune running it is now making changes to the base map but the additions and subtractions from the base map do not show up on the base map until you accept them. This does NOT mean the auto-tune is not making changes, it means you cannot see the changes yet. So now your riding around with auto-tune running, you come back connect to the computer, then you click on the trim table on left side of screen then on the bottom left you click on get table, all the changes the auto-tune made in the last session appears in the trim table. A session is basically the riding around you just did. At this point the needed changes to the base map have not been made permanent they were being made on the fly and auto-tune was making those changes on the fly. The trim table is just telling you what changes the auto-tune was making on the fly. So you click at the top of screen and click auto-tune then accept trim table. Now the changes the auto-tune was making on the fly are now part of your base map and your trim table should now show all zeros. At this point you can go back out and ride around at all kinds of throttle positions, come back and look at your trim table and accept them again. Each time you go out riding the percentage of fuel changes will get smaller. You can keep doing this over and over again and the auto-tune will want to make a change of a small percentage every time. Once you get it below any 5% change every time, you can stop by accepting the trim table, save the new base map on computer then disconnect the computer and auto-tune module.

    I am sure what I just explained about making changes but not seeing them etc. might be confusing. If you were going to connect the auto-tune and leave it on your vehicle all the time, accepting the trim table would not be that big of deal cause it will always be on the vehicle making changes on the fly you just won't see the change in the base map if you plug in and look at it, you will see it if you plug in and look at them trim table. Remember though if you have cells that show air/fuel ratios below 11.5 or higher than 16 you will have to make manual changes in those cells then let the auto-tune finish fine tuning them.

    A reason for accepting the trim table to the base map once you get it all tuned, you could then remove the auto-tune. Unless you made some additional mods to your engine, you would not need to put the auto-tune back on.

  15. #10
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    Hello Campbell and Tim,
    have not been online for a longer time now and also not been on the bike that much the last weeks. First of all, a lot of thanks for youre detailed explainations. I'm sure that well save me a lot of time and fumbling around. I think I will start going on during the next two weeks, trying to implement all your recommendations. The AFR's from Campbell are gone down as well and I also will try this as starting AFR's with the Auto Tune, looking how they will be adjusted by this. May be I also will look if I can get into the Ignition timing by the PC somehow, for creating a wett mapping. I will keep you in loom about my progress.

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